What about a hots section?

I've been talking with a hot herp breeder and she wanted to start a va hot herp forum website. I figured, why not have a section here? Comments?

I would be down. Although I don't keep them, I can experience them through y'all!!

Us hot keepers are hard to find. It seems as if we are underground..... I figured why reinvent the wheel if there is already a hobbyist forum?

Absolutely!!!

I would love to keep hots waaaay down the road when I was more experienced, but I love seeing pictures of them and reading about them. Not to mention, the more information readily available, the better. I'd be game to lurk a hots section

I also wish to lurk in such a forum. The more knowelege I gain now the better a keeper I will be if and when I ever decide to keep hots.

I'm not allowed to keep them, but I love the pics...I'm for it

I think it would be a good idea to have it as a hidden, invitation only forum. I wouldn't want to do too much to encourage young inexperienced people to use it as an only source of education. I think having a mentor to teach you is the best way to go.

Those with hots could spread the word to drum up members. We should probably have a sticky with some warnings as well.

Don wrote:

I think it would be a good idea to have it as a hidden, invitation only forum. I wouldn't want to do too much to encourage young inexperienced people to use it as an only source of education. I think having a mentor to teach you is the best way to go.

Those with hots could spread the word to drum up members. We should probably have a sticky with some warnings as well.

Hidden is fine, this would be more as a way for people who have hots to connect and discuss issues, like breeding loans etc.... hots are not as widespread as, say, ball pythons. So it's hard to find people to talk to and network. I do agree that a mentor is the way to go prior to owning any hots.... and wouldn't want to glorify owning hots in any way what so ever to inexperienced hobbyists. What I do want, however is a place for us to come together and discuss breeding, sells, trades etc... It could be a hidden invitation only, however, the question would be...under what circumstances would we allow or not allow members.

You bring up a good point. What I would like to avoid is the wars that go on over at BP.net and others when someone starts talking about hots. It gets very heated (no pun intended) and it is frequented by just tell me how to handle and get a snake type posts.

Here is an example:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?175793-Venomous-Training&highlight=venom

I think if we did something like the playground, where you have to go into a post (with the proper warnings) and make a request to be admitted would be better. We could probably restrict it to over 21 as well.

"and yes I will probably end up dying from this hobby. Thank you all."

That line says it all....

I"m down with a hidden, "playground" type of forum. However, how do we verify age? I don't mind the age restriction either.

The warning is absolutely a great idea. I think it may even show a picture of snake bites. The Southeastern Hot Herp Society does this quite well. They have snake bite stories and pictures plainly for people to see.... and it's the risk of the hobby. I have no problem with that.

The profiles have ages in them, we would have to assume people are not lying. Of course, we need Nick, the site owner to chime in and approve. Once he gives the go ahead, we can get it set up.

Of course we need Nick to sign off.. you mean we don't have delegated authority? What is this a DICTATORSHIP????

I do want to add that I appreciate and like the fact that vaherps.com is about responsible ownership of reptiles. This adds to the credibility of the hobby and it certainly helps when it comes to defending our hobby. Thanks for chiming in Don.

it all sounds good to me.....

I'm looking forward to it

I had a venomous classified set up a while back but removed it after the incident in Hampton last year. I meant to look into the laws a bit more before I reinstated anything of the sort, but I'm down for it.

Let me think about this today and see what the forum would allow in regards to the requirements y'all mentioned.

leftoflarry wrote:

Of course we need Nick to sign off.. you mean we don't have delegated authority? What is this a DICTATORSHIP????

I do want to add that I appreciate and like the fact that vaherps.com is about responsible ownership of reptiles. This adds to the credibility of the hobby and it certainly helps when it comes to defending our hobby. Thanks for chiming in Don.

Focal wrote:

I had a venomous classified set up a while back but removed it after the incident in Hampton last year. I meant to look into the laws a bit more before I reinstated anything of the sort, but I'm down for it.

Let me think about this today and see what the forum would allow in regards to the requirements y'all mentioned.

what happened in Hampton last year?

I want one I need a few hots in the collection

Larry i believe Nick is talking about this incident http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/local_news/hampton/man-ok-after-pet-albino-cobra-bites-him

I would love a hots section. It would be nice to learn more about these beautiful creatures from people who keep them. I one day would like to keep some when i get alot more experience.

http://www.wvec.com/my-city/hampton/Cobra-snake-bites-his-onwe-134299658.html

Not a big deal for us now, but the forum had just started and I didn't think promoting the buying/selling of venomous would have put us in a very bright light after that, in re to "media twist." I believe we had a couple for sale on here at that time. Right before or after that article, there was also a news channel that went to a reptile show and showed how easy it is for anyone to buy them. There was no ID check, no pre-questions asked, etc and there were no rules in place here. Basically, removing it was the path of least resistance.

I'm not too big on opening the classifieds back up for venomous, but a discussion forum won't be a problem. There is a lot of great information that people should be made aware of, whether you own or not.

I will create the Venomous Disscussion Forum. I'm still a little torn about the age requirement thing though. I like the fact of educating the youth but don't want to entice children to get into them. Talk to me about how you guys feel on this. The internet is free and has a million places for anyone to learn about them, but is this the right thing?

And for the record, I don't have anything against hots and I had to rewrite this scattered post numerous times so it didn't sound like it, so please forgive me if it does.

Oh yeah I remember that actually. I thought this was directly related to Vaherps.com I think there is nothing illegal about having a hot herp classified section. 1. Free Speech, 2. It is legal to own these animals in Virginia, with the exception of a few counties. 3. People get injured by many other animals all the time, yet horse forums and classifieds are still running. I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, however, due diligence is the key. A private forum with experienced hot keepers is a great way to go. Additionally, it would be a great place to at least get good information and not crap.... education is the key to all this, and this is something that I stress continually through the VHS but also as a personal hobbyist. Education, education, education.

I think the forum should be a place for us hot keepers to also find each other. etc... much the same way as the rest of Va Herps does for all other species. It's a place where we can exchange ideas, husbandry questions, breeding questions etc... A discussion forum would be great. The idea came up last night in talking with someone who wanted to start a Vaherps similar page but dedicated to hots. I just figured why re-invent the wheel if there is a place for va herps already?

I think an open discussion forum for hots would be helpful and educational, I also think there should be some sort of warning and some pictures to go along with it. It should be done as more of a this can happen if you are not responsible with these animals. If the need ever arises where people wanna sell or trade hots you could always make that a hidden forum with strict rules of who gets in.

i think it should be a go. although i dont keep any, i have seen many in the wild and love to study their behaviors, attitudes, reactions, etc.. i do agree with Don however, that with a section like that, it might entice people to get them when they dont know enough or have nearly enough experience... would be a great opportunity to learn more. and larry and other venemous species keepers could keep us updated on whats going on and post pics and teach us stuff!

Focal wrote:

http://www.wvec.com/my-city/hampton/Cobra-snake-bites-his-onwe-134299658.html

Not a big deal for us now, but the forum had just started and I didn't think promoting the buying/selling of venomous would have put us in a very bright light after that, in re to "media twist." I believe we had a couple for sale on here at that time. Right before or after that article, there was also a news channel that went to a reptile show and showed how easy it is for anyone to buy them. There was no ID check, no pre-questions asked, etc and there were no rules in place here. Basically, removing it was the path of least resistance.

I'm not too big on opening the classifieds back up for venomous, but a discussion forum won't be a problem. There is a lot of great information that people should be made aware of, whether you own or not.

I will create the Venomous Disscussion Forum. I'm still a little torn about the age requirement thing though. I like the fact of educating the youth but don't want to entice children to get into them. Talk to me about how you guys feel on this. The internet is free and has a million places for anyone to learn about them, but is this the right thing?

And for the record, I don't have anything against hots and I had to rewrite this scattered post numerous times so it didn't sound like it, so please forgive me if it does.

I like the idea of having a permission required Venomous Discussion set up like the Playground. I think it would be prudent to either not have an Venomous classifieds or make it both hidden and "invitation only" as opposed to permission requested. Perhaps anyone with over a certain number of posts (so an active member) would automatically be sent an invitation. Or, anyone like Larry's friend, who either keeps hots or could be vouched for by another senior member could have an exception invitation regardless of their number of posts.

I too am concerned about the possible image issues and more importantly, the potential backlash. I am almost 100% positive there are HSUS members on this site and they are certainly viewing as guests. Do we really want them going to our congressmen and saying "look, you can buy cobras for $xxx, right here in VA from unlicensed dealers!". I know its our legal right, but it's also just added fuel on the fire to have it brazenly public AND local. I believe this site was already referenced in a slightly negative tilt in one of the news articles concerning the backlash over the man who killed all the snakes. That is fine (biased reporters ), but I don't think it would be good for this site to be referenced in a story like the Hampton Article.

Brian you raise an excellent point aboit hsus. Certainly this is a concern.

All good points. The last thing I want to read about is someone being bitten by a hot and say they learned everything they know at VAHERPS.com. I am not against hots and am very open to education. However, I also work with dozens of lawyers, so I am also cautious and worry about liability. That is why I suggested a hidden forum, like the playground.

See here's the thing about a private forum, anyone can request to be added if they meet the requirements. HSUS and at least one other group are already members here. 95% of the forum cannot be viewed by guests. I would not want any person denied access or someone that simply isn't "known" if they meet the requirements. Hidden forums are typically for members that don't want to stumble across certain content or for private groups. Private groups lead to singling members out, which I would not want to treat a fellow hobbyists this way. Then you get the whole vibe of the "buddies only" theme.

Not that am I opposed to it, but VDGIF has been on here and I would not doubt if they investigate illegal activity, which also is not opposed to. Point being, it's a public forum with anonymous members and regulating with a private forum seems like hard mission to accomplish without treating somebody different. What about our current members that are underage that are into hots that have proved responsible enough to learn from a hot forum? These are just things going through my head.

Keep the good points coming!

Here is another type of discussion we can expect on a hot forum:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?163598-Where-to-get-Antivenom&highlight=antivenin

This might be a good example of what happens if you are careless:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?170640-Friend-got-bitten-by-Albino-WD-Rattler-*graphic-picture-warning*&highlight=antivenin

And this:


http://www.reptielenopvang.nl/bite-backpicsGB.html

All great points!!!

But we have to remember that HSUSs extreme animal right's agenda has nothing to do with legality. Theirs is a philosophical argument. I'm not so much interested in a classifieds section as I am in regards to an information section. HSUS would be hard pressed to portray vaherps.com in a negative light if, we are educating the public in regards to safe handling of ALL reptiles.

Here is what I propose:

Public forum on the discussion of and education regarding hot snakes. This would need to be properly monitored and moderated, with rules. NO classifieds, etc... all conversations will be allowed per moderator discretion.

Private forum for hot keepers only (not exactly sure how we could go about ensuring that only hot herpers will be on here). That will be the tricky part. (if not, then someone can start a separate hot herp va forum some where). We already have this: Southeastern Hot Herp Society

What is negative here is the fact that we have to even have this discussion. As far as I'm concerned this fear of HSUS and other animal rights activist groups has already given them leverage and a point in the battle. We can't even encompass the whole hobby without fear of retribution. I think we just need to have an educational forum at least.

leftoflarry wrote:

All great points!!!

But we have to remember that HSUSs extreme animal right's agenda has nothing to do with legality. Theirs is a philosophical argument. I'm not so much interested in a classifieds section as I am in regards to an information section. HSUS would be hard pressed to portray vaherps.com in a negative light if, we are educating the public in regards to safe handling of ALL reptiles.

What is negative here is the fact that we have to even have this discussion. As far as I'm concerned this fear of HSUS and other animal rights activist groups has already given them leverage and a point in the battle. We can't even encompass the whole hobby without fear of retribution. I think we just need to have an educational forum at least.

Yes, EXACTLY!!!!!

My first thought is that when I think of the internet and hots I think of YouTube videos of snake charmers. Forums where hot keepers alienate anyone who asks a question because "if you have to ask you shouldn't own hots." And the weird guy with a blog who as a college student randomly decided to keep a rattlesnake and thankfully lived long enough to grow some brain cells and regime it. Sure there are a few documentary clips and things written by experienced keepers, but there isn't a whole lot of good stuff out there.

I understand that the less visible we are, the less people think about us, and the less they try to take away our ability to keep the animals, but in the end I think we have to balance that fact with the vastness of the internet and ask ourselves if its not worth it to be the voice of knowledge out there in a sea of secrecy, inexperience, and ignorance.

Yes, eventually some dumb person may make a hasty decision after reading what's publicly available, but if the collaboration and knowledge helps keep hot keepers around the world safe on a daily basis does it balance out?

For the record these are not hypothetical questions. I'm not really sure where i stand, but these are my first thoughts.

I will add that what is great here is the fact that we are having a civil discussion. I had no idea this was going to be such a "hot" topic.

he added it!

I see what you did there.

Also. Yipee!

leftoflarry wrote:

I will add that what is great here is the fact that we are having a civil discussion. I had no idea this was going to be such a "hot" topic.

I agree

leftoflarry wrote:

Brian you raise an excellent point aboit hsus. Certainly this is a concern.

Thanks, Larry. Let me expand on this a moment:

There was an article posted here recently (if someone can find it) where people were outraged that a snake collector, who was taking good care of his snake collection, was unlicensed and lacked permits. Nevermind, that no such licenses or permits are required or even exist! Something about licenses just make people feel warm and fuzzy about occupations and hobbies that they have zero understanding of. I'd mention how a concealed handgun permit doesn't hinder criminals from concealing guns just law abiding citizens but that would be a digression.

I can picture a public uproar following the disclosure that people can buy cobras and mambas from local unlicensed sellers. Even if this seems utterly ridiculous to us, this will be a major point to the fearful public and more importantly, the politicians who live, sleep and breathe regulations and increased bureaucracy. This isn't as much a problem for national sites like Fauna and Kingsnake but I fear a local classifieds with easy access would just be too tantalizing to a local politician with HSUS whispering in his ear while sticking money in his pocket.

Nevertheless, I would love to see a Venomous discussion and classifieds. I find them incredible and can't get enough pics and information even though I don't keep any. Hopefully we can find a good balance between safety for our hobby and enjoyment for all (even if the thrill of hots are just through reading for some of us!)

I have no comment on a venomous discussion forum.
However, I don't like the idea of a venomous classified section as this would promote keeping venomous as "pets". Also, If Nick created a venomous classified section and an unscrupulous seller sold to a minor and something happened, would Nick share some of the legal liability because he provided the means for the transaction to take place? I don't know.

Hot keepers can always PM other known hot keepers if they want something or wish to sell something.

I agree with JW with all of this. I would love to have a discussion section here. My favorite forum that I frequent (BLBC) has a venomous section and the keepers of the hots are so knowledgable its not even funny! But its great to see their animals and hear their stories and such. Also its just something great to converse over.

I would also like to see and think it would be a great idea if y'all made a minimal post limit to be able to post into any classifieds section. That way you can assure that the person is contributing to the forum and not just here to spam us with something they are supposedly trying to sell. Also, I think there should be a minimal post limit before you can post pics. Again, this will enforce that person to contribute to the forum in general before he or she starts spamming the forum with just their stuff.....I hope all makes since. BLBC runs stuff that way and it keeps all the crap out!

I know I got off topic, but it just ran across my mind and thought I would throw it out before I forgot. But I am ALL ABOUT having a venomous discussion forum for us to learn and discuss some amazing reptiles!!

Let's give the public discussion a shot. I have faith in our crowd and think it will do well. There is something that sets us apart from the rest and I think we have the fight in us to go up against what any of these "terrorist" groups throw at us. I've seen some very remarkable things happen since this forum started and I honestly think we can change the current state of the reptile community to our favor. Let's show them what they don't expect.

thats the spirit nick!

I agree that a venomous classified would probably be a little too tempting for people.

I have no plans at all of keeping hots anywhere in the near future, if I ever did it would be in years and years, after working my way up from keeping many different types of herps...

That being said, I love venomous snakes, seeing them and hearing about them. I love how smart they are, I love their quirky personalities, I love watching (experienced) people handle them.

I agree that a classifieds for hots would probably not end well, but I see no harm in a venomous forum section. I have faith that the hot keepers on this forum are waaaay too smart to encourage anyone who isn't ready, or feed into impatient appetites. I like the idea of requestable, 21+ access though. I think that is slightly safer.

I don't plan on an age requirement. I can control a forum but not ones actions. I think the best we can do is educate and hope for the best. Although a thin line, the forum will be used for knowledge, not for promoting of ownership .

Awesome! I'm excited for it

Thanks everyone! I left some rep for everyone, I believe, and greatly appreciate the help.

jw wrote:

I have no comment on a venomous discussion forum.
However, I don't like the idea of a venomous classified section as this would promote keeping venomous as "pets".

Anyone who thinks that a venomous reptile is a pet, needs to reconsider what a pet is. A cobra or rattlesnake that can potentially maim you for life or kill you is not a PET. it is a hobby that you have considered the risks and have accepted them. I have no names for any of my snakes, even non-venomous ones. why? because they are not pets, in the sens as cats and dogs are. they are beautiful animals that are well kept, fed, controlled heavily and happy. but not pets.

Nicely put Larry.

wow this is a really big discussion and im offering my opinion. I think we should have a hot section. Like it or not but venomous snakes are reptiles and thats what we are all here for is because we all have a common interest here. And if we dont allow them then we will be just like the people trying to ban alot of the things we keep. Maybe you could put up some sort of disclaimer like big companies do on tv. And i would rather there be a place where u can learn the right ways to deal with hots. Then maybe those inexperienced people every ones worried about might be a little more informed.

In my opinion, Nick would face no liability as the site owner if something negative happened. I was an intern for a certain Attorney General in the northeast before he became a senator. Much of my work was on researching the liability of Craigslist with regard to prostitution.

Bottom line: we could not find anything to charge Craigslist with for providing a section, previously called "Adult Services," for people to conduct ILLEGAL activity. The people conducting the activity could be prosecuted, but the site owner had zero liability and was NOT responsible for their actions. There was even a court case that upheld this: see Dart v Craigslist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dart_v._Craigslist,_Inc.

So, the only reason Craigslist doesn't have an "Adult Services" section today is because the AG I worked for joined the AGs from about 40 other states in going on national TV to publicly shame Craigslist. They joined with other advocacy groups to exert pressure through the main stream media. It worked, and I'm glad Craigslist took it down, because it was being used for illegal activity.

Now, regarding your site, as long as you clearly state in the section that all members must abide by local and federal regulations with all transactions/activity, you will be in the clear. You could even have a banner that says no one under 18 years of age allowed. You could do permissions and have an off-topic forum, but is that even restricting anyone or verifying their age? Bottom line: nothing illegal is happening here, provided people who live in certain Virginia counties follow their local laws. Even with Craigslist, where illegal prostitution was rampant, and even encouraged under its own classifieds section, the site was still never responsible.

Besides, wouldn't it be better for people to buy and sell hots in a forum with venomous experts and law-abiding citizens that know the law and have an interest in the well-being of the animal and the keeper? That would be much better than Craigslist or other questionable transaction venues.